Posted at March 28, 2007, 7:52 pm:
Here we go, I hope I'm not the only one who actually took this idea seriously . I don't know if this is really the final copy, but it seemed finished enough to post. This isn't really ment to be a debate thread, but if anybody has suggestions of what I should add, they are welcome, and I will maybe Edit them in.
Development
Anarchism is a loose political theory based on the principle that all forms of government in which man rules over man is wrong. Anarchism is not a specific philosophy, but rather has many branches. Individualist, Anarcho-Communism, Anarcho-Syndicalism , and Anarcho-Capitalism are the most dominant forms, and I will get into more detail later.
Proudhon and the Basics
The term 'Anarchism' was first coined by Pierre Joseph Proudhon, a French Writer most known for his book "What is Property?", and his answer "Property is Theft". Influenced by the revolution of 1830, Proudhon remained prominent in the early years of the movement, although never latched onto one particular branch to call his own, and eventually in his older years shifted slightly toward con-federalism. It is important to realize that the property Proudhon argues against is not personal property. He, and most Anarchists, make a distinction between the property of ones personal lives (a house for instance), and that used for the larger purpose (like a factory).
A staunch individualist, Proudhon was highly critical of Marxist philosophy. He once wrote to Marx, "Let us not become the leaders of a new religion, even were it to be the religion of logic and reason". In explanation of his vision for the future, Proudhon wrote, "The very sovereignty of the people contains its own negation. If the entire people were truly sovereign there would no longer be either government of governed; the sovereign would be reduced to nothing; the State would have no raison d'être, would be identical to society and disappear into industrial organization".
These are views embraced by most versions of Anarchism, which can all be pretty much boiled down to personal freedom, or as Bakunin stated it, "Freedom is the absolute right of every human being to seek no other sanction for his actions but his own conscience, to determine these actions solely by his own will, and consequently to owe his first responsibility to himself alone".
Individualist Anarchism
One of the hardest branch of Anarchism to really explain, Individualist Anarchism is not so much a political theory as much as a personal philosophy. IA is originally based off of the writings of Max Stirner, a German egoist writer who declared, "Every State is a tyranny, be it the tyranny of a single man or a group." While similar to the German Nihilist movement, Individualists rejected the destructive manner associated with them.
Anarcho-Communism
This is where we get into the meat of it. Anarcho-Communism is based off the writings of Bakunin, a contemporary, and on/off friend of Marx. Bakunin, while agreeing with many principals Marx professed, believed the only successful instatement of Anarchism could come from spontaneous revolution, rather then the incremental merging Marx wrote of. AC is based on voluntary communal living. Bakunin was very explicit that the individual should never be coerced into anarchism, and that, "The individual owes duties to society only in so far as he has freely consented to become part of it. Everyone is free to associate or not to associate, and, if he so desires, to go and live in the deserts or the forests among the wild beasts".
Anarcho-Syndicalism
Syndicalism is kind ofsimilar to AC, but is based closely with the Union movement that erupted after 1848, and died down after WW1, (Except for Spain, where the CNT still exists, albeit in a limited form). Instead of communal societys, Sydicalists believe in webs of mutual, Democratic based Unions. At its peak, the members of European Anarchist Unionists numbered in the millions.
Anarcho-Capitalism
Not considered Anarchism by most, I felt obligated to provide a brief description. The basis of AnCap is that the same as regular Anarchism is relation to government, but believes in an Unrestricted Free Market. Often criticized because by eliminating government, it allows monopolistic company's to take over.
Anarchism in Action
1830 and 1848
The revolution of 1830 in France was not actually anarchism, but heavily influenced early writers. The revolutions of 1848 involved Anarchists to a limited degree, but its most important effect was within a few years, over 900 Anarchist influenced Unions had started throughout Europe.
Paris Commune
Again not a real Anarchist movement, but notable for their involvement on the part of the Communards, as well as its experiment in peoples direct input into the running of the government. It was soon destroyed however when Versailles troops retook Paris and slaughtered about 30,000 participants.
The Haymarket
During a rally in Chicago on May 3rd, 1886, the crowd was attacked by the police, A bomb was thrown and a number of police killed. Although obviously innocent, a number of Anarchist and Socialist leaders of the rally were arrested for the bomb (it is now thought a policeman or someone in their pay threw it to provoke a retaliation). Five were sentenced to death, one of which committed suicide in his cell, and the other four were hanged. The remaining 3 were pardoned by the governor, who realized the trials were a sham, a few years later, and the rest cleared of charges. In the aftermath, immense sympathy, national and world wide, was brought to their cause (the 8 hour work week), and May 1st was made International Workers Day.
Propaganda by the Deed
A regrettable time in Anarchist history, for a time, the Anarchist International Congress endorsed the practice of select assassination, which resulted in the death of a number of heads of state. It was eventually realized this was counterproductive, as it only portrayed an image of violence to the public. After the assassination of McKinley, the practice was disavowed, but not before getting Anarchists on most government watch lists.
The Russian Revolution
It should be noted that soviets were free workers communes that had resulted in the Revolution of 1905, and again in 1917. The Bolshevik party, one of the smaller ones at the outset of the revolution, adopted the name and slogans to surf along on the popularity of them with the people. The quickly became the largest political party in the revolution.
The Kronstadt
The Kronstadt was a naval base at which the sailors had been particularly commended for their valor in the revolution. It was also home to one of the largest soviets, one that took the Bolsheviks initial promises of autonomy literally. In 1921, as the Bolsheviks started to tighten control, the Kronstadt refused to cooperate. A handpicked unit of the Red Army (most refused to assault men they still thought of as allies) assaulted the Kronstadt, killing almost all inhabitants.
The Makhnovist movement
The Makhnovichina was a large area of the Ukraine founded by the Anarchist Nestor Makhno that encompassed 20 million people by some accounts. He organized a militia, which initially fought with the Reds against the Whites, and was at one point the largest fighting force on the part of the Reds. However, Lenin saw them as a threat, as their free communes he viewed as a threat to Bolshevik power as it presented another option, one he didn't want, to the Russian people. So once the Whites were minimized, he ordered Trotsky to take care of it. A meeting was called, and all the Makhno militia commanders went to meet with Trotsky. Instead, they were arrested and executed. Nestor escaped to Paris, but the Red Army, with the element of surprise, swept in and destroyed the Makhnovichina.
Spain
Spain was the home of the largest Syndicalist movement in Europe. The Spanish Anarchists were initially started by Fanelli, a disciple of Bakunin. They soon moved into a Unionist movement, headed by the CNT Union. Even after the Republican government emerged, the Anarchists still attacked it. However, when Franco started his rebellion against the government (which was leaning Socialist), the Anarchists decided to side with the Loyalist forces, which also comprised of government forces, Stalinist Communists, Trotskyites, and Socialists. Centered mainly in the Catalonia (Barcelona), and Andulsia regions of Spain, as well as with influence in the Basque region, the Spanish Anarchists numbered 2-8 million (depends who's counting). However, the Communists were ordered by the USSR to consolidate power, and attacked the Anarchist forces. The Trotskians (POUM) were caught in the middle (hated by Stalinists as well), and leaned towards the Anarchists. With the loyalist forces split, the Fascists, backed by Hitler and Mussolini, overran them and gained control of Spain.
I am working on a longer summary of Spain. ITs to big to add here, so heres the link to part on later on.
[url=http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7064858&postcount=277]Part 1[/url]
[url=http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7208790&postcount=312]Part 2[/url]
[url=http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7208800&postcount=313]Part 3[/url]
Original of the message was taken from http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/
Replies:Paris Commune II (May-June Revolt)
"I take my desire's for reali...
Very very impressive man.
so do you think anarchy could work in a society of now? and why dont t...
Take a comparative government course.
ooooooooooooooo thanks Tway
I don't know how to ask this question, but is anarachy like a state of...
No and No
So theres nothing but disorder?
Does a nation who is over taken by ...
No.
What happens to jobs are there still jobs?
Of course.
Makes sense The Irish Republican Army, I don't like the IRA by the way
Yes.
Would the movie mad max be an example of anarachism
Does greed stil...
No.
Is that no for the mad max question? or in general?
What Happens to religion?
What about the questions I asked 4 posts ...
All the Anarchists on here have ever told me is 'The people would unit...
People would be allowed to believe whatever they want.
heh that sounds funny.
Would the movie mad max be an example of anarachism
No, thats Chaos...
How come there aren't any (or aleast that I know of) anarchy governmen...
And who would be enforcing this fascism? Surely not the revolutionary...
I was looking at the quote made by NOFXfreak
"What Happens to ...
How can anything be run, if not for profit? I would like someone to ex...
From what I learned, You will in small communities, there own little n...
It definately could.
If they don't teach it at your university you need to ask for a refund...
There arn't laws in the current sense of the word, but there are guidl...
So you don't think Anarchy requires a global movement?
Amazing, pure class,
I think you deserve some rep for that
I was bored.
Of course it requires a global movement.
How does it work far better? I would also still like someone to explai...
They might not be affected at all.
It would work far better because the means of production would be demo...
The problem with the theory of anarchy is simple, it is based around s...
To be clear, anarchy =/= chaos.
So, if we lived in a anarchist community we'd basically be relying on ...
You depend on farmers to grow food.
Farmers depend on people, too.
Yeah, OK.
It just wouldnt work I dont think, a lot of my reasons other people ha...
In anarchy the people govern themselves.
People do pretty horrific things when theres nobody to stop them, i me...
people wouldnt, at least not very well.
I think that even without a 'government', morals and ethics would stil...
notice that I said 'the people' not 'people'.
Ok, heres a basic explanation of how it might function (this isn't the...
Dude, where do you live? ther's nothing like that around here, althoug...
heh good job nofxfreak (although your name is kinda silly cuz you are ...
Saber, I live in Maine.
Such programs don't work without a level of expertise, so there would ...
i think.
jaredong said it, the basic assumption is that man, if not naturaly go...
Oh sweet Jesus.
I have to do a special study for my history course, and these fit into...
Guerin's book has a good analysis of them,
http://www.
i should print this out and post it all over my school so the all the ...
Cool, Thanks This is a great thread, I never really took anarchy that ...
**** right.
It wouldn't do any good.
Yeah, but he might get to a few of them, and it would be worth it.
Haha.
we have a philosophy club I started with a friend.
Great thread.
in a single step model, you wouldn't, but in a communal model you woul...
What if someone simply doesnt do their job? Everything would kinda bre...
Like I said earlier, Anarchism works on the assuption people are willi...
Education.
Anarchy is Democracy in its purest form.
empty post
sorry to break it to ya, but we live in a Federal Democratic Republic.
thats too long
Dude.
We? I doubt that you live here where I live.
Not much difference.
sounds good to me mob mentallity and vigilante justice how can it not ...
I live in Finland.
Was that really worth a post?
Thanks NOFX freak, good thread
Rep+
Noku, while I can not say I am too familiar with the Finnish governmen...
If I would have to vote for every decission made in my society I would...
You only have say in issues that effect you.
Noku.
Could your fascination to anarchism be your answer for political frust...
I would say it started that way, but no longer falls under that headin...
hey nofx freak!
i live in winnipeg, mb canada and im jus wondering ...
I'm in the US, so am not too up on the Canadian gov.
hi there, from what i gather the word is 'rebel with no cause'.
What?
Exactly!
did you read the ****ing synopsis I put together?
Since when did your synopsis become ****ing?
I am also interested in anarchism, and is currently developing theorie...
dude u musta bin really bored
who're you talking about
Do you really think that people would allow some wanderers come and go...
Wow, didn't you see I put utopian society model before presenting this...
If I get around to it, I'll post up my Confederalist anarchism model.
Looking forward to it.
I'm 17
Okay, I got some questions now.
Anarchist Party's wouldn't really run in elections, although in Spain ...
That, and all the tribes had tribal leaders.
They weren't really tribes by the Middle Ages, more a collection of pe...
They had written laws.
It could be classified as Right-anarchy if the term is used loosly.
I'd like to help NOFXFreak out a bit and bring forth the idea of Parti...
So what happens if you're a prick who's pissed off your work-mates.
No, anarchy works on the assumption that everything will always run sm...
I wouldn't go that far Tway, but it works in the assumption that peopl...
5000 years of human history begs to differ.
People haven't getting along for much more than that.
Anarchism would be great, if everyone was able to get along.
yes, history says otherwise.
whoa man! I should check in more often.
:Yawn:
Call me when the revolution occurs.
not a question.
No, because a military would be a focus of authority, which would lead...
wow well don rep u def
my question is wat about education wud it no...
um.
Whats the deal with Ukraine and anarchism? I've been trying for quite ...
um.
I wonder if this has been asked
What about health care benefits for...
After Retirment, u will be provided for assuming you did your part whe...
Provided they don't try to organize a community that's not structured ...
From what you've said, anarchism depends on a global revolution, or un...
Surely if the commune members saw this abuse then they would expel sai...
Actually, they are welcome to form it on any structure they want.
... them and what army?
NOFXFreak, Lenin ordered Trotsky to aba...
Nice post.
Trotsky had no say over the Makhno's forces, but either way, I wasn't ...
Good stuff.
Excuse me for being cynical, but how on Earth could they be "makh...
Because they where communists.
Tomaytoe - tomartoe
Communism - Totalitarian
Anarchists - Anti-Authoritive
Sorry abo...
Communism is totalitarian? I better read das capital again.
Probably the part about the dictatorship of the proletariat, you know,...
Ahh, the part which is called 'socialism'.
Because Makhno was the militia commander and stratagist.
Even though the idea of an anarchistic political system is cetainlny v...
i know you didnt write all that ohhhhhh plagerism you should of qouted...
::Sigh::.
Interesting that you ignored the rest of my post though.
I ignored the rest because I am pretty sure I had already covered the ...
We're not in disagreement there.
Anarchy requires the belief that either A)People are good at base, or ...
I understood that bit.
Well it has shown that it can be implemented and work well internally.
When were mentioned the symbols, and how the original version was corr...
Neither exampe existed for more than a few years, so I hardly think th...
not the moment its confronted.
The Italians were never a viable fighting force; they could barely han...
Ya, the Italians were crap, but they still were giving Franco more mod...
Why is this stickied? If I made a thread on 'the beginners guide to ca...
Because It was created after a series of "Guides to" were pr...
Bombing a town of no strategic import shouldn't do much to any movemen...
Nobody reads any positive threads about capitalism anyway.
I was merely pointing out that the Germans commited more than a single...
The German force that bombed Guernica was made up of the Condor Legion...
How would buisnesses be run in anarchism? And would guitars still be m...
its not the point of this thread, but it disproves your point
as l...
No it doesn't.
There was also German ground forces involved.
with anarchy, do you think in the world today, it is possible for it t...
I addressed that earlier.
Perhaps regiment was the wrong word.
20000 airmen is by no means a small number.
That's pretty ok.
As seen fit by the people.
Ok, what's Syndicalism?
Anarcho-Sydicalism is based on Unions.
What makes someone do a dangerous job? (firemen etc.
Dude, haven't you been to kindergarten? EVERYONE wants to be a fireman...
Firemen I would think would be run as a volunteer unit (very common an...
I think anarcism mixed with marxism would work
have you read anything here? Marxism and Anarchism are not to things y...
Not to mention Marxism calls for a Dictatorship to slowly dissolve, wh...
Like I said
Nice Avatar btw.
What is the place of the Artist in Anarchism?
That which is appreciated by the public will survive.
Well its been shown that culture and the state seem to have an inverse...
I made it.
http://struggle.
Does greed exist in anarchy???No matter what you will allways have pro...
I have answered that question way to many times.
Has anyone heard about the thing going on a UCSD? I heard a bunch of ...
sounds a lot like capitalism
oh and by the way, sorry if sum1 alrea...
CNT is the largest Anarchist Union to exist (it still does, but not li...
It was during the Spanish Civil War in the 30's, but most history book...
Most do actually, they just try to downplay it.
oh really? Mine makes absolutely no mention of it whatsoever, It just...
o wait, u mean General history.
I'm currently doing a s'hitty project on Fransisco Franco, the bad guy...
NOFXFreak, you say you live in Maine, and you have a community farm an...
Brunswick actually.
portland
cool 8)
Although the thread has died down, for the record, I'm on vacation as ...
Communism killed my parents and raped my wife.
:SADFACE:
Good topic btw.
I might hang out with the Evasion kid next weekend
I just read an awful lot of bull****.
Im not sure if that was directed towards anarchism or me, either way I...
very good topic.
what aspect of it are you skeptical about?
Where are you going?!?!
Where did I go rather.
I went there once, my uncle owns boat so he just sails around there fo...
no there are no jobs because if there is no government then there is n...
im sorry to hear that man, communism is a very bueatiful thing when it...
Wow, you lucky duck!
Danish, please get on AIM.
ya, it was really great.
You missed the entire point of the thread.
he also missed out on punctuation
wow.
But that would mean the end of industrial production, wouldn't it? I c...
There is no political edeucation in schools (at least not where I live...
I only get political education in Republicanism, Fuedalism, Democracy,...
Forget Marx, forget Chomsky.
I assume you are joking.
Yay! my thread has a clone! Imitation is a form of Flattery I guess
...
Slightly late, I know, but the IRA are generally socialist/Marxist the...
Would the only way to bring about anarchy be through revolution or cou...
ALthough Anarchists tend to stay away from participating in government...
idk what a mod is.
I have no idea what that has to do with this thread, but its a Moderat...
so you could consider yourself anarchist and be in a political party a...
Thats why, while I'm not one myself, I think Sydicalism presents the m...
1) Anarchists consider anarchy to be independant usually, cept the Syn...
The Anarchists were actually mostly destroyed by their "Allies&qu...
d'amn commies
heres to that!
I agree.
How about anarchism and moral?
I've been thinking lately that the p...
I have that sign, along with the quote, on all my schoolbooks.
Originally Posted by TheNowhereman42
2) Anarchy is not chaos, quite...
but there wouldn't be any "poor" or "rich" because...
Morality is at the core of Anarchism.
Yes but there would be differences on "wealth" between socie...
I am not that familiar with anarchy or communism, but how does real an...
Now you need to put things in right perspective
Moral is a social ...
Many people have similar moral outlooks.
Really, not by much.
Thak you.
Thanx 4 that
empty post
Socialists believe the means of production should be seized and used f...
Not always, depends whose theory of Communism it is.
thats the CPUSA's theory
You forgot about peace-anarcho!!!!!!!!!!!
Isn't anarchism anti group? Is that not ironic?
Have you read the guide.
I was wondering if there can be a liberal or conservative anarchist?
anarchism isnt "anti group".
Well, once a true anarchist system is in place, im sure there can only...
Not necassarily.
I'm new to this whole concept of anarchy.
Depends what commune u decide to join.
If a truely anarchist system is in place, how could there be such a th...
Well, I would think that hierarchical religion, religion with leaders,...
Presumably, there couldn't.
I think I listed a few in the Original Guide posts, but if not, Daniel...
Exactly, they would all be conservatives because they would wish to co...
something like that.
Anarchy is a cool concept, but it has no real application; society can...
That would be Newtons theory of physics.
The only place anarchy could have worked was in the neolithical era an...
It worked in modern Spain, Mexico, and France, read the guide you dunc...
If it worked then, then it means it's still in existance; I can very w...
O exaulted one! You intrepid insights have won me over and made me rea...
I didn't read the guide b/c im doing calc homework right now and this ...
I dont have any homework today, so I'll try and right up a summary of ...
Ok, here's part one.
This part confused me.
Bad syntax on my part I think.
Yeah, I got it now.
I'm pretty sure no Anarchist uprisings have been crushed from inside b...
What I don't get about anarchists is why they want no gov't.
because you didn't read the **** guide.
Wow.
DEMOCRACY AND CAPITALISM ARE THE WAY TO GO!! "Democracy is the un...
Blessing and suffering are relative to each other, and as such, they w...
Wow mr 2 posts, your insightful post has really made me think!
I'm ...
your my hero
ANARCHISM IS IGNORANT! Just becuase your messed up "guide" s...
/hands you flame retardent suit.
Speak for yourself.
1.
Spain was a anarchy?
ya.
Well, I have to say that I'm not a huge fan of governments.
Two things NOFX.
No, I think just certain parts, in the Spanish Civil War.
I'll let NOFX handle Malatesta, what they mean by the abolishment of p...
What about my guitar? Is that communally owned?
Sorry Nowhereman, but that is (generally) incorrect, but first, on Mal...
Ah, that makes sense now.
[quote][quote][quote][quote][quote]lolr0x0r
Would a Mod PLEASE delete that post? It is a real eyesore.
Okies.
hmmmm,.
i'm impressed.
I'm pretty sure that I made it clear they weren't going to be treated ...
a few pages back someone was asking of books on the subject;
for a ...
Zinn, while Interessting, it sometimes a bit of a hack.
opinions vary,.
I didn't mean to come off as necessarily meaning to counter you, I jus...
Ok, here it is Part two of the Spanish appendix.
and finally, part 3.
indeed, sometime ago,.
also? what and where is the "guide" you refer to?
thanks,
...
lol.
lol.
Anarchism = an archia = Without Government
Capitalism = Free Market E...
Hi NOFX good job with this!
it really is a minor point i am making.
thanks
When I'm bored enough, I'll probobly write up another appen...
Like the avatar, NOFX?
very much so
http://www.
You sick twisted little boy.
or not.
I have read approximately half of this thread and am not sure if this ...
well, either one is an reasonable answer actually.
I think the biggest problem is natural bias of human mind and that can...
It's interesting what you say about using drugs to remove the natural ...
Thanks for the info NOFX.
it is not only human nature, but animal nature.
we can argue this and that, but we can't prove anything, because regar...
Cool, did you make it?
yep
Not that it was all that hard.
It is not animal nature to be greedy, it is self preservation that kee...
well put prince k.
Aye, I find that.
Sorry if this question has already been asked, but it's the one thing ...
While I guess there is a theoritical possibility of it, if an individu...
be well in peace.
As Thomas Jefferson once stated the government that governs least gove...
I prefer Thoreau's elaboration.
This is a question about Marxist communism in general; not really anar...
There are always those who have incentive to do the job because of wha...
before the question "Will all sorts of occupations be paid the sa...
NOFX freak you have done a really good job on informing people on what...
This might have already been asked, but would'nt somone try to take ov...
what about currency? can things hold monetary value?
You need to work on syntax, but as far as I can tell, your basicly ask...
while opinions vary on this point, i see no problem whatever with curr...
I only got my hands on one book on Anarchy till now, but heard several...
Read the thread.
You didn't have to quote the entire thing just to say that.
Yes, I did.
He wasn't an anarchist per sé, but he hero worshiped Max Strirner, who...
It takes nothing away from his writings if he wasn't an anarchist.
Indeed, he did "worship" Stirner and recomended him to Baumg...
Striner was pretty much unkowen, outshined by Hegel during his time, a...
Well, with any luck, I'm going to be buying Homage To Catalonia tommor...
communism.
I think your a commie ( anit-christ)
do you mean 'Anti-Christ'.
Why does being a communist make me the "anit-christ"?
that's weird, i think jesus is more of a commie.
What?
The Tway? Communist? Let alone the anti-christ?
You are so full o...
Nah he got me, I'm the anit-christ.
Oh shi.
Well for once in my life I got a school topic that doesn't suck, I've ...
That actually the exact topic I am doing for my APUSH class
There ...
What about Homage to Catalonia?
I've got that; it's awesome.
Very good book, but Orwell is British, not American
Point, but it shows a view on the war.
yes, but not the one he needs for his project.
1) I knew the American thing, although I think our history book lists ...
Then how is it for American History? I'd assume that if it was on a t...
Aye, I'm considering it succesfull because they held out pretty well d...
Most of my American History class was about the 19th century.
As was mine.
I'm not sure, but my thesis is probably going to be that while the ran...
the first semester of my class was 19th century, now its Cold War/WWII...
Christiania is another place where Anarchist is in action, but that ha...
I have read some limited information on the place, but don't know to m...
I don' tknow if you guys mentioned this, but if you wanted to find out...
Make another thread man, these threads are getting kind of sad and I l...
A friend of mine who used to be in a punk band in the 80's is big on a...
...
Isnt equal treatment a more communistic ideal?
Feminists are drawn to "Anarchism", as exampled by Anarcho-F...
Indeed.
Or if they can pick up a quarter without using their hands?
empty post
YYYYEEEEEESSSSSSS.
I got a real hot girl to do try and touch her elbows behind her back t...
You are my hero.
Indeed.
To the creator of this thread: You're a friggin' dumbass.
To the ****tard who just posted.
Ask Jim to change it.
he can? Sweet!
Yeah, he is an admin.
Change it to Blink182Freak!
I'd rather take Cyanide.
That's another good option.
lets bet on what he'll change it to.
no, Bloodanguts, thats what I use for.
empty post
Get a real brain.
So, veggie, you've become a "libertarian socialist" now, hav...
Potential to do what?
I'm still trying to discover where I am on th...
When in the hell did Scotland defeat England? Trust me mate if we had ...
Irony?
Actually, England and Scotland are now the United Kingdom because the ...
It's nice to see him fulfilling it.
Debating about anarchist theory is pretty much worth nothing if the pr...
I believe that if Anarchism will ever be achieved, it will actually co...
Well.
I would have to agree.
The problem with Anarcho-capitalism is that it takes away the one thin...
I would support Mutualism before any of them, and believe it is probab...
Well, how about the "debate"? It would be interesting to see...
Freedom Uprising Festival May 28th
12pm to 8pm
at the UCLA Labor Cen...
thats exaclty why im not fully right.
There'd be nothing surrogate about it.
Sellout!
lol! Just cause I ain't a primitivist?
Sydicalism and/or mutualis...
Thanks for the info but i'm aware that the Stewart dynasty inherited t...
'lo, just droppin in cos I found some information about Christiania, h...
While I agree, I still think more in terms of Marx than you.
Im sorry, but I have to throw in my two-cents.
The CCCP has absolutly nothing to do with Anarchism.
Anarchism can't be done, end of discussion.
I would argue against you.
The only way an anachist state would stay is if the rest of the world ...
Acknowledge is a better world to use.
i agree.
Which of course is why it was effectivly implemented in Spain, the Ukr...
What happened to NOFXFreal, NOXRFeak?
**********
Indeed, NOFXFre...
I got banned playing superpeers guessing game.
So whats everyones opinion on the recent events in Chiapas and the EZL...
I haven't heard about it.
http://www.
Well basically the Mexican government went into rebel territory and bu...
what do you think about people who are not followers?
are they sick?
...
there is this cool site ourcivilisation.
what is he talking about?
Before i say anything i would like to establish the fact that i am not...
Eww.
There is always a sense of organization to be found.
Orginization of Society is essential, I won't deny that.
Anarchy isnt a longterm plan anarchy is most common during revolution...
No, anarchism is the removal of coersive and hegemonic controls from a...
wow, you just shut that kid up.
Anarchy sounds good but would it work? Humans are dumb creatures and w...
Sorry, I no longer will be answering posts with grammer below a 5th gr...
Whats wrong with that? Eventually the entire human race would be stron...
[quote] Sorry, I no longer will be answering posts with grammer below ...
I think you got me wrong the problem
Is that someone will be in cha...
if you comment someones grammar.
You mean it actually could be something clever in the thing I wrote? b...
din morsa lukta fritterad getrov i fittan.
hehe Thank you then i will look for my answer
and yes the gramma wa...
very very very very bored.
wanting anarchy is probably the dumbest thing you could want, so buddy...
Did you read the thread?
I don't think so.
Look up anarchy in the dictionary, fagmo
any form of it is not good...
Except you wouldn't rape his mom and sister or kill anyone, because li...
Yay! Arguing with retards is fun!
From Websters Dictionary: 'Anarch...
Can you better explain the AO "Anarchy is Order" idea? I und...
"Anarchy is Order" was an utterance of Pierre Joseph Proudho...
Thanks but I still don't understand the differenece between this^ and ...
Its because a Union has slight regimentation, since Union officers nee...
Thanks.
np Glad to spread the word
If you enjoy that book, also check out...
Human nature to want regulation?
Not quite.
The fact that anarchism exists as a philosophy proves that it is not h...
Oooh, that explains the millions of people who didn't resist Fascism a...
I understand what you're saying about wanting regulation but i wouldn'...
That's a terrible argument.
My point is merely that you can not place one feature upon humans and ...
As long as we continue to be human, human nature will exist.
What is human nature?
Nobody's entirely sure, though I believe we have enough empirical evid...
What would you say would be an example of human nature?
Self-promotion.
human nature is greed.
People need to stop with all this "human nature" business.
I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "cop out".
Human nature is so complex and unexplainable people can use it even fo...
What one book should I buy on Anarchism?
Two, at a push?
Im hardcore for jesus.
I always recommend Guerin's Anarchism as a first buy.
Anarchy could actually work even if human nature was greed--it's Max S...
Individualism is great, and I love it, but its not effective for urban...
A greater problem lies in that not all people are capable or willing t...
Any Kropotkin?
I have Kroptikins "Anarchism".
Okies.
Isn't it much more anarchic to borrow the book from a library, that wa...
Yes, and while I dunno about Veggie's, but I my school library has one...
Well, I would, but my library at school barely has any books on politi...
any ism is an action towards artificial order ithas to be genuine
...
Update on my power.
hehe.
Alright, now say that there was an anarchal society somewhere, and all...
Ah.
I was just thinking.
Reading through what you wrote, I think this is the key phrase.
But surely that's a problem with the American system, not the democrat...
Key word, Party membership.
But, provided they are democratic, they can represent most of the inte...
Well, where are you located?
New Zealand.
Hmm.
It's Mixed Member Proportional, meaning Parliament is decided upon usi...
hmm.
Anarchy is flawed
Personally, I think annarchy is bull****.
thank you for your wonderful, though out, and well expressed post! Ple...
Oh, you're welcome, asswipe.
Dear god.
Hmm.
What we need is somebody like you or the Tway to mod this forum.
Thanks for the support 8-)
Trilemma and Mav are good (usually), but...
I really don't think Danish would be a popular or wise decision.
Danish probably wouldn't have enough overall support, but he'd have mi...
I wouldn't have overall support, but I'd have mine :shifty:
Futue, who'd you used to be?
Rage against the lavigne.
lol! I didn't realize u were rage.
So you changed again, eh?
It's RATL!
I think that NOXF.
My new username goes well with what I think most of humanity should do...
I thought it was you.
natural order
No the IRA are total prats, who believe somehow that blowin up 'their'...
the IRA were just responding in the best possible way to an undefeatab...
Anarchy is either for ever or never.
I know what the dream is.
anarchy is a way of life not an ideology or an alternate system within...
Chaos is not anarchy, though.
not always, but it can be.
...what?
ok.
Which is what this guide is supposed to be dispelling.
Chaos is never and has never been a good thing.
anarchy
n : a state of lawlessness and disorder (usually resulting ...
Because it is.
okay, so what your saying is that my definition of anarchy is off topi...
Use an encyclopedia.
haha m,an thats awsome.
what discipline.
refer to last post, I've pulled out of this one.
Im a noob when it comes to anarchism, I thought that it was just "...
The commune would expell said offender.
why can't the commune kill him?
he didnt do anything wrong he just doesnt like the guidelines set.
He starts up some sort of political movement to attempt to change the ...
Theoretically they wouldn't want to as it is violating his basic right...
Here's a paraphrase of Bakunin that I think answers the question nicel...
My bad, thought it said 'doesn't live by those guidelines.
Ahh so he can stay do as he pleases butwith no support from the commun...
No one is forcing him to go, or too stay.
Alright, thanks for clearing that up.
if you dont really understand, look at [url=www.
looks like total **** if you ask me.
so this hypothetical killing dude gets to
1.
He's violating their right, though, so the commune would force his exp...
No one said aything about killing, I was talking about someone who mer...
Assuming anarchy would work pretty much only if the ways humans acted ...
The Russian Revolution proved that a gradual change isn't going to wor...
When you guys talk about guidelines in a society, it sounds like you a...
Well don't you think that there should be objective laws?
Unless its a purely individualist society, there needs to be an object...
Well different people would have different opinions on what their &quo...
You make is sound like a martial art!
When I talk about rights - when any anarchist talks about rights, you ...
anarchists aren't supposed to speak for other anarchists.
In many matters yes, but the concept of individual rights are pretty m...
Ever pulled your head out of your ***? You should try it some time.
Economics is not a comparative government class, it (at least at my sc...
Economics is centered on the fact that there are limited amounts of go...
It is also centered around the fact that everyone is competing to get ...
Just because money does not exist does not mean that resources are unl...
well someone definately deserves to die of cancer.
What problem?
There doesn't HAVE to be some system, but a system would probably come...
I certainly hope it wouldn't be governed by a single centralized force...
Sorry about the die of cancer thing, I thought I saw a really lame thr...
I don't know of any anarchist who would support a command economy.
Have you guys set up a working model yet? :P
Well I wouldn't say that’s an economic problem.
I agree.
What do you mean?
Free - Not controlled by obligation or the will of another (Dictionary...
No rules or control? What does this mean in reference to obtaining res...
People will share them when requried.
I haven't really researched the economic problem, but when I took econ...
My point was that with no government to regulate the market, it would ...
In smaller communes the monopoly thing wouldn't really be a problem.
Some services naturally lead to a monopoly.
Well when most people promote free markets they don't mean "absol...
I know, but I don't see how a community with no government can fight a...
Neither do I.
hi everybody
I think you mean is: why anarchism is impossible to put in place prope...
When you group individuals together, they tend to get remarkably stupi...
obtaining any form of anarchy in full is impossible as long as violenc...
I agree with that whole post except the bolded part.
What would would have the authority to take away that wealth but a gov...
And violence and greed have existed forever and will exist until the e...
Well, you stated that wealth was the road to power.
So you assume.
It’s hard to determine what greed is.
A road to power, not the road to power.
Yes.
So is eating ****.
And why it hasn't been put together properly.
That's the irony of anarchism.
Humans eat each other’s feces? Or are you referring to other animals? ...
Greed and Violence are both a means to aquire power, and you will neve...
Looking at my hands and mouth, it doesn't seem like I evolved to be pa...
What can I say? I really don't see how such a system would work.
Incidentally, I could provide an alternative hypothesis with equal val...
Hey Das, I've broadened the projecty thing I'm doing to anarchy in the...
The Nestor Makhno site is the only one I know of thats is specific to ...
no!
I don't mean to get rid of competition, but to base my life on coopera...
Of course it is a horrific logistical nightmare, but we have the math ...
Violence can, in many ways, be blamed on the fact that there are in an...
Well like I said.
Cool, thanks.
Despite all of your points on how to end world poverty, you are yet to...
"no, you're wrong, it can't".
I certainly don't see why people should live in overbearing poverty.
America spends the least amount of money per capita on foreign aid tha...
read please kill me and you will learn everything about anarchism.
What are your thoughts on the erasure of $40 billion worth of debt, Je...
Isn't that that book on the early Punk scene?
OmG! sEX pIStoLs R s...
I think that it is a great step.
I'm certainly no expert in this field, but I would say that it really ...
Granted.
Because we all share certain moral obligations?
It isn't really.
Why?
The thing is that of course if you don't have any other proble...
When did I say that politics involve moral idealism or is even based o...
Right.
Because it makes her feel better, and making one person feel better is...
True anarchism, like communism, is impossible.
There is no such thing as "human nature".
It has been tried, and worked, but only in small communities.
Human nature is what we inherently do and how we inherently act to cer...
Communism has certainly not been achieved in any of those states.
It's a common fallacy that because we can't prove something it doesn't...
It is human nature to try and stay alive and to eat.
Of course human nature is inherent in humanity.
Human nature
First of all im not a capitalist, im a student, but im...
eh there's some suicidal annorexics.
Why would a doctor or teacher have to bust their backs to support ever...
How exactly do you think class develops in the first place?
Because of one group of peoples relation to the means of production as...
Do you think that a doctor, or any other citizen with a similar middle...
The Anarchy thread is reborn yet again!
The more power bureaucrats ...
How does one group gain the advantage in the first place?
First of all, there is no such thing as a "middle class".
Classes emerge in a certain stage of development of the productive for...
People only work for personal incentives.
Ya'll know my stance obviously.
So what would be the point of going to university to study for over a ...
They start to monopolize the means of production and this gives rise t...
Ahhh, the sound of silence.
Everything society needs to function successfully.
I've already shown you that there isn't really a middle class and I do...
The state and class society are generally considered outcomes of the b...
No.
The state arises before class exists.
Well, yeah, everyone knows that.
Nope.
The state and class structure arise within the same time.
The state, it would seem, arose primarily as a method of preventing an...
Of course education is important.
There are socialist political parties all over the place.
Yes.
The first "states" that came into power were kings and warlo...
It is democracy for the capitalists - not the workers.
No, the state was a direct result of Slave Society.
You just contradicted yourself with your last message mate (see above ...
Where is your proof for this? What history books are you reading? Id l...
Most of the workers are not educated on socialism due mainly to the ca...
Actually, you should just read chapter nine of Origins of the Family, ...
Once people settled down in villages and hamlets they needed a strong ...
Its not hard to learn about socialism, or anything for that matter.
It's not just slavery.
How do they get to monopolise production without an advantage?
Also...
Engels wrote his works over 120 years ago.
Anthropologically speaking, government predates homo sapiens.
My girlfriend read that during the summer, and loved it.
do it now.
I just brought it back to the library yesterday, in fact.
who cares about college reading this is more important
You're right.
Exactley!
Pages 25-28 are what happens when people start thinking politics matte...
Classes occurred with specialization and agriculture.
Argument, or rather freedom of speech, is what makes a liberal society...
I think the lack of a coherent structure sabotaged the spanish revolut...
Pretty much.
I don't understand why you would cherish the rights that the governmen...
It's more a case of whether you trust everyone else.
would there be a form of currency, or just complete free trade?
There will be no currency.
All cultures/societies have currency.
Foraging cultures too?
Yes.
I was under the impression, at least with meat, everyone just shared w...
Currency was used for inter band trading.
shells and feathers are easily transportable.
If someone is a jackass, that is their problem.
You're assuming they won't impact upon your life.
I hope you guys know that there currently are Anarcho-communes in the ...
Who's up for some brain-washing?
Most communes in the US are utter failures.
I read about one in National Geographic.
Your wrong about the Transcendentalist movement.
Maybe, the place for an anarchist (What I mean is someone against gove...
Someone against words?
Yeah.
Anarchists are against words?
STAY IN LINE!
SIT DOWN!
STRAIGHTEN UP!
LISTEN!
More or less (mos...
Originally Posted by robot
I hope you guys know that there currently ...
I never said 'do nothing'.
Read 1984.
and its an absolutely brilliant book.
Anarchy would never work on any large scale population.
If I was a mod, I'd ban you for supidity and Spam.
Whaa??? what does that have to do with anything.
Probably been discussed earlier, but incase it hasn't, whats everyones...
no man ajnarchy can't work because someone will try to take power and ...
Do you mean the Paris Commune or the current riots?
Das, I'm unstickying this since it's been around for ages now and it's...
kk, I'd advise putting a link to it in the Forum Rules thread though.
kqoted 4 tw00f
wait, are you still an anarchist? i can't even tell anymore
In the general sense yes.
yeah, i've sort of shifted into objectivist outlook myself.
Do you think Ayn Rand was hot?
not really
Then you're not an objectivist, ironically.
...ok?
The old joke is the only difference between objectivists and libertari...
anarchism.
Read the first two posts.
nope
.
ani starkiller.
Care to explain what makes it retarded then?
I've seem some stupid people before, but this is definetly impressing ...
im sorry that it's nothing new to me.
whatever metalhead atheist
thinking proves it to be
You know nothing of Philosophy.
WTF? Try asking me what my taste in music is?
Normally I don't bother responding to posts with such sub-par grammer,...
I don't think anybody on these forums is much of a philosopher.
Again with the unsubstantiated claims.
britnee.
@ Das
I reread your thread starter.
I think it's safe to assume that not many political systems would last...
Thats the basic idea.
Yes, I agree that the concept of it is all good and well, but won't th...
Whats your point? There are always a few bad apples.
And also, if it were possible for a few dissatisfied individuals to co...
I think there would be more than a few "bad apples".
Please support your case.
So all types of discimination (sexism, racism, religion), monopolies, ...
Huh? Lets see:
Discrimination - no
Monopolies - define what you mean ...
I must say, I always have been confused to Anarachism's position on th...
I know what it is, but does he mean in the stricktly capitalost sense?...
One thing I still don't understand is how to quell violent and unratio...
As I see it a monopoly can either control supply provided or price but...
yeah but they produce less than would be produced in perfect competiti...
they produce less at the same price, or charge more at the same supply...
Well, this is a blast from the past.
Yes.
Good oh.
Yea, I've seen you post a few of those now.
I didn't read the entire thread, but I'd just like to know what you gu...
I have a couple questions about anarchism.
Anarcho-Capitalism? Wtf? I've heard of the others, but not that one.
The real problem with anarchism, is that the only way for it to succed...
First page of this thread mate.
Heh, I only put a blurb on AnCap in the first page, so that won't do h...
Interesting.
i like hakim bey and some of his ideas a lot especially the idea of t.
Ayn Rand is generaly considered an AnCap.
I just read this long rant on some geocities website about how idiotic...
I'd just like to know what you think about him, I thought T.
yeah i agree, t.
[URL="http://www.
how so? it's easy to add a bunch of ad hominems.
firstly it's no argumentum ad hominem, secondly i don't think you can ...
"CHAOS NEVER DIED.
you are right, i realized that after the fact, my bad there
yeah this is more of a metaphor/poetic writing, i understand what you ...
Just in case there is the slightest chance you're actually serious:
...
nevermind then.
uhh my god, I can read.
well i never knew art had to have 'merit'.
hey, hey where's my line by line analysis?
I'm being serious - if ...
if that's self-explanatory i must be all kinds of stupid.
well if you can't understand it then don't just ignore it and say it's...
i wouldn't say that, but like i said it's different types of thinking
Challenge any socialist, anarchist, or whatever pretentious title they...
and today's word is pretentious brought to you by the letter p.
And you don't?
I can easily justify the existence of capitalism by reference to empir...
I can.
zoro posted this in that other thread, but i'm being analretentive, so...
Are you joking? You're asking how a capitalist concept could be solved...
Art-Sabotage can not be used to further any cause.
yeah i look at it more as an "individualistic cause" "s...
Funny how without logistics, the world wouldn't survive.
Yes, of course! Socialism aims to destroy the Earth!
/hums Imperial ...
Zoroaster is a brilliant gimmick, but here he's actually right.
Bump because I want an answer - how is logistics only relevant to a ca...
A nicer way to phrase that question would have been:
"I don't un...
beats me.
empty post
Oh, sorry.
Hi, sorry I fairly new to this topic and really im responding to comme...
Well, one major thing is it wouldn't be a state, as the chief goal of ...
Yeah, I understand my use of the word state was incorrect.
Well, anarchism isn't a system, it's (like I keep repeating) a state o...
That's tripe.
Coheneran, just because everyone lives by your ideals doesn't mean tha...
I appreciete the help, and don't doubt your sincerity, but if by Funda...
He never said that, retard.
God no! John Zerzan can stick it up his prehistoric arse.
I'm assuming this is only when you use the special state of mind that ...
Please, cohen is so formal, call me Eran.
Ja, its a flaw.
That's what I said, but more straight-forward.
Errr.
Ah, but Hitler used anti-semitism to direct anger and take power and p...
Why, how and in whose terms of effeciency?
OK.
I don't quite agree with you.
You guys managed to create a non-chaotic society yet?
Haven't even created a non-chaotic thread yet
Why? Because too many resources are wasted today on profits, marketing...
Economic effeciency is measured in value of output/time.
In my opinnion the owners of the workplace should decide what happens ...
but the owners would be the workers because of nationalisation so the ...
What he's saying is the employees should be the owners.
Sorry but i have to correct this.
Er, haven't you contradicted yourself?
Hitler hated Jews because ...
Whether he hated them does not matter, because in politics you don't s...
Read Mein Kampf.
I don't doubt the sincerity in his hate of the Jews, but I also don't ...
The IRA is leftist, some could say slightly Marxist.
The workers are in a far more precarious economic position than the ow...
That's a capitalist idea hidden in commie clothes.
It's quite the opposite of capitalism to suggest that surplus should b...
No, I was talking about the concept that they should be free to use it...
That's compatible with either system.
If your going to ressurect this thread, make it for a worthwhile point...
I wasn't aware that communism included economic freedom
Depends if you're talking about communism or "Communism.
But only my way is the correct way at looking at economic efficiency.
Does that mean it's an inherently bad idea?
No, but unionised labour etc isn't a fufilment of democracy's historic...
Ah, but that's merely your opinion.
No, it's true.
I don't even think we're arguing here.
My only point is that, strictly speaking, this isn't democracy.
Nope.
any number above 0 would constitute 'exploitation'
in as far as two p...
I'd say it functions like a democracy, and can even be considered a de...
No, but it'd be an improvement for the greater good of society.
I don't really want to reply in full yet, but I would like to point ou...
yeah, and unequiped labour likewise produces zero value.
Yeah, we went over this on the last page.
without the owner of capital there wouldn't be any business
hey why don't we just let them decide
because thats what they agreed to?
No doubt.
ok so whats your point?
No!! They didn't agree to it freely because it's not mutually benefici...
there aren't? that's rather presumptious.
I'm unsure about how there is a "dialectic" relationship bet...
Yeah, the market.
substitute "market" with "reality"
good thing it doesn't have to.
Wait you realise im kidding right
I'm as strident a capitalist as the ...
i was wondering about that, but i thought that maybe your blood had tu...
Because it is his equipment that allows for the generation of the vast...
Are you assuming capital must be privately owned? If so, that's quite ...
Stop repressing my bumping liberties, syndicalist.
Er .
i have the same problem with you
Then ask me about anything you think I am not serious about.
your avatar
I am definitely not serious about that.
no, the state can own capital as well
What difference does it make?
Um.
well very few people make minimum wage and many of those are kids or s...
And capital can be owned by those who use it.
A computer and a phone is all the capital you need.
uh yes, capital is normally used by its owners.
Very few? Where do you live? Here anyway most people make less than mi...
Actually, quite of a lot of it isn't but that's besides the point.
oh then they should probably get a job
Did you read my post, or did you select one line and dispute it for no...
i didn't dispute it
Alright, good.
Hahaha.
The value of output/time, was it? Of course it takes into account over...
Not overhead costs, oppurtunity costs.
but it is necessary in a capitalist economy
which is undisputedly be...
No, it's your opinion that it is better.
wait, you think pre-capitalist and command economies are not inferior?
All have their advantages and disadvantages, which were covered in the...
ok
Depends on your opinion of what the advantages and disadvantages are.
No it's blatantly obvious, and even part of the historic dialectic tha...
[quote=Ollie The Drumming Legend;6234985]People do pretty horrific thi...
Yes, of course.
only if society actually uses said goods or services, otherwise its ju...
Heh, good point.
no why would you think that?
I was making a subtle joke for your benefit.
nah i knew what you were doing, BUT I HAVE NO SENSE OF HUMOR, AND NOW ...
what about the amish community???.
I don't post here often but recently me and a friend were talking abou...
Anarchism never was about chaos.
How do you define "right-socialist," incidentally?
Statist socialism, such as social democracy or 'socialism in one count...
Bolshies!
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